The Escape Artist: In Conversation with David Pajo

With many of his accomplishments being the gateway for a generation, it’s fair to say that life would have turned out very differently had it not been for David Pajo.

The driving force behind one of the greatest records of all time in Slint’s Spiderland, it could be argued that no one has explored wider landscapes of the American underground than Pajo.

From his post-hardcore and post-rock endeavours in King Kong, Tortoise and The For Carnation, to collaborations with Will Oldham and The Children’s Hour (not to mention his explorations of black metal under the Evila moniker), Pajo’s free-movement mantra has also seen him share the stage with the likes of Interpol, Yeah Yeah Yeahs and, most recently, as guitarist in Gang of Four.

In between this broad catalogue of work, through the guises of Papa M, Aerial M and his own name, Pajo is responsible for one of the most vibrant, forward-thinking solo canons from the underground. There aren’t enough column inches to unpack the highlights of Whatever, Mortal (2001), Pajo (2005) let alone his wonderful singles series and Misfits covers album, Scream With Me (2009).

The last three Papa M releases have seen Pajo move away from the woodsy, lo-fi offerings of the past for more meandering, improvised sketches that have opened up more doors in his ever-evolving sound world.

2016’s Highway Songs resulted in Pajo smashing together post-hardcore and metal amongst collage-based noodlings, as he excavated deeper into the world of post-rock. Two years later, the gentle acoustic-based A Broke Moon Rises rubbed shoulders with the earlier works of Aerial M with faint Kentucky echoes slowly drifting through the campfire flames.

Following Household Gods’ 2020 debut LP, Palace Intrigue, the project that also featured the late Vern Rumsey, Pajo returns with the latest Papa M release, Ballads of Harry Houdini. An exploration of the past spun beautifully in the present, Pajo carves out a series of improvisations that oscillate between the many sound worlds he’s occupied over the years.

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Opening song, Thank You for Talking to Me (When I Was Fat) is something to really get into your ears. With TNT-era surges riding against the black undertow of Slint, Pajo rewires the idea post-rock. Meanwhile, the electrified waltz of Ode to Mark White sees Pajo channelling his inner-Tom Waits. The beautiful, sleepy delirium of his past solo work enveloped in a warm, velvety blues.

“After we recorded Tweez and before Spiderland, we all sort of got into a lot of non-punk, non-hardcore music. Tom Waits was one of them for me,” says Pajo, speaking via Zoom from Boston where he is preparing for Gang of Four’s farewell shows.

“I remember when Rain Dogs was a new record and everything before that, all the way to the first album. I pretty much know that part of his discography inside out. But I haven’t listened to him in a really long time,” he says. “He’s one of those guys that I feel like… if they’ve been with you that long, they just become part of your DNA. Gang of Four was like that, because I listened to them a lot back then.”

Speaking of the latter, Barfighter contains inflections of the hooping bass lines that formed the foundations of post-punk as we know it. As always, though, Pajo doesn’t stay in one place for long, and with People’s Free Food Program he concocts a rockabilly swagger with galactic dub that straddles the orbits.

Then there’s Rainbow of Gloom – a hushed-serenade with a squiggly Malkmus-like guitar jam that sees Pajo in full exploration mode. It’s the perfect landing spot for Devil Tongue. Perhaps the most Pajo-esque song from his early days, it radiates with the warm modesty and charm that stole hearts all those years ago.

According to Pajo, the album’s title isn’t associated with the music of Ballads of Harry Houdini, however I wonder whether there’s something subconscious at play. Pajo’s career, beautifully unmoored, constantly cross-pollinating ideas and forming collaborations that you never see coming. Perhaps Ballads of Harry Houdini is an extension of Pajo’s own abilities as an escapist artist of sorts?

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, despite the last two weeks, for the optimists at least, we can be thankful that there is new music from David Pajo.

Sun 13: It’s a big call, but I think your Misfits covers album, Scream With Me, is the best covers album ever written. Do you look back fondly on that record?

David Pajo: “Wow! Do you know the story about that record?”

S13: Only that is was released in 2009.

DP: “Yeah, I actually recorded it in 2004 on a cassette when I was house sitting at somebody’s house. I was writing songs for the first CD that I did under my own name. I just wanted to tear apart and deconstruct the songs of some other artists… songwriters that I looked up to. I thought, maybe The Everly Brothers or something like that. I always liked Danzig’s melodies and lyrics, so I thought I should just go in and figure out what makes these songs tick, or what it is I like about them.

“I took the four-track from the place I was house sitting at and recorded on that. I just left the tape in there, because it was just an experiment. But then the tapes got passed around, and then eventually someone wanted to put it out. I always loved that record because it was never meant to be listened to other than me, so it’s kind of like a pure record to me in that way.”

S13: Talking about your own name and Papa M, did you have an idea what would be released under which name?

DP: “No. Usually everything was done in one big chunk, and then it was just a matter of weeding out the stuff that wasn’t that good. That process isn’t too hard, but there are some people that are way better at it than I am.”  

S13: Can you tell us about the inspiration and the process behind Ballads of Harry Houdini?

DP: “I just wanted to improvise more. I’ve always felt that improvisation was my weakness, and so I’ve always wanted to get better at it. In the past couple of years especially, I’ve been practicing guitar a lot at night, improvising a lot. This album was me trying to create foundations for me to solo on, really (laughs).

“The reason I put it out was because with the nature of improvisation, there’s going to be stuff that only happens one time. Some of that I just couldn’t do again, so I thought, ‘I need to save these and put them out the way they are’. I played all the instruments, and I did it without a computer, so I had to play all the parts from start to finish without punching in or fucking up. The whole recording process was one take, except for the vocals on the second song. Otherwise, everything’s one take… I did it several times, but I couldn’t go in and clean it up if I made a mistake. I had to redo it.”

S13: Did you have the album title in mind before you finished the music?

DP: “No, it was afterwards. The title has nothing to do with the album. I just thought it was a cool title. I was trying to think… what if I was a fan of Papa M, and Papa M came out with an album… what would make me want to get it? I’d never heard this album called Ballads of Harry Houdini, I’d want that! It’s sort of false advertising. I almost thought about putting a sticker on it that said, ‘Papa M, Ballads of Harry Houdini, and then, in big letters, ‘CONTAINS NO BALLADS OF HARRY HOUDINI’.” (laughs)

S13: It really does sound like it encapsulates everything you’ve done over the years. Is that something you thought about?

DP: “That’s really good to hear. No one’s said that. That’s always the goal… trying to use all your experience to your best potential. I don’t think I’ve ever put it into words, but I just always hope that all my experience will come out now rather than selected parts of it, you know? I felt like the record was all over the place, but that makes me feel like it’s more sort of well rounded, if you know my history.”

S13: Was Ode to Mark White the first song you wrote for the album?

DP: “You know, I think it was! The first song I recorded was Rainbow of Gloom. It was on this Tascam to one of those mini hard drives, but it was destructive recording, and I had to be really selective about what tracks I chose. I just wanted to see if I could actually do the process, because I really wanted to make the record without staring at blobs on the screen… I just wanted to use my ears completely, and the record probably suffers production wise as a result of that.

“So yeah, Rainbow of Gloom was the first to test the waters, and then the first original song I wrote was that. It was just Jon King telling me stories about his best friend, Mark White, who started the Mekons. All his stories made me really want to write a song about him, because he reminded me of me and a lot of my friends… the way we work, just punk nerds.” (laughs)

S13: I could draw a line to something like that and Papa M’s Truckstop Girl. Scrapbook musings that are illuminated through song…

DP: “Yeah, exactly. That’s what I’m going for. That’s cool.”

S13: Generally, how do you feel after you’ve written a record, and was it any different this time around?

DP: “Well, usually I’m so sick of the record… I don’t hate it, but I don’t want to hear it at all. But this one – and I’m guessing it’s because there’s a lot of unwritten things that happen on it – I feel like I can listen to it over and over and notice something I didn’t notice the first time around. I think it stands repeated listening for me, whereas I’m usually pretty burnt out. That’s a good sign.”

S13: Do you work on music every day, or have you got a strict routine when you’re in the writing and recording process?

DP: “When I’m in that process, I have a pretty strict routine, but it’s not a very healthy one. I just do nothing but record and write, and then sleep and eat when I remember to. I have to make sure that I don’t have to see the kids for a couple weeks, because the whole house becomes my studio. (laughs) There are mics everywhere and drums in one room… I’m literally sleeping on my bed with guitars and parts all over for a while. (laughs) It’s pretty crazy, but I have to be really obsessive to get it done. I’m kind of like that with everything. I’m a mono-tasker. I can’t multi-task at all.”

S13: Do you think your immediate surroundings on the West Coast have influenced your recent works more under Papa M?

DP: “I’m sure it does. I mean, if a day goes by that I don’t play, I don’t consciously think about it, but I feel like my identity’s not fulfilled that day. I don’t know how to describe it… it’s just something I do every day, and if I’m lucky, I can do it for a couple hours at least. I’ve always been like that, because I remember being 15 or 16 and complaining to my mom about only practicing six hours a day and not nine hours a day! (laughs). Normally nine hours was a good day to me, and this was all summer long, when all the other kids were chasing girls and playing. I don’t have to play guitar every day, but if I can, I feel a lot better.”

S13: Maybe if you didn’t have that attitude something like Spiderland wouldn’t have been written?

DP: “Probably not. It’s funny, because we always had long-term girlfriends, all the Slint guys, and we were really into being loyal. We were so against what all the other people in our school thought and were into monogamy. Such geeks. (laughs) I went through my wild phase later.”

S13: Speaking about the past, it’s been a really good year for you. The Children’s Hour album came out and the recent Aerial M Peel Sessions was reissued as well. What are your most significant memories around both of those releases?

DP: “The Children’s Hour was just a wild time, because that’s when I was in Zwan with Billy Corgan. That whole world was so topsy-turvy and alien to me that it was all surreal. The Children’s Hour grounded me… real people just making music, you know? It seemed really pure, and it still has that. When I did it again, it actually sounded better to me than it did 20 years ago, and I thought it was great back then! But it’s way more delicate now when we play it live, so coming back to that was really cool.

“The Peel Sessions… I always liked our performance on there, and always thought it should come out. I heard it on YouTube years ago, and thought it was such a shitty quality recording. I had a cassette of it, and thought if it was properly mastered you could actually hear all the stuff that we’re doing. I’m so glad Drag City was into it, because I also wanted to make it look like the old Peel Sessions, graphics wise.”

S13: With The Children’s Hour record, I think there’s a connection with Slint in that there’s a real young innocence to those songs. You’ve always had that ability of flitting between different worlds…

DP: “Yeah, I think I’ve always loved pushing contrasting things together and seeing how we can make things cool. Even with Slint, it was like, ‘I have this riff that’s major. Let me throw on some minor notes and try to fuck it up, and then let me try to make that work somehow’. I think that whenever I’m at a lack of ideas, I always think of the most wrong thing and see if that’ll shake things up a little bit.”

S13: Like a punk ethos, basically?

DP: “I guess it is, yeah.”

S13: You’ve collaborated with so many artists from different scenes and sound worlds. To you is that the beauty of music… to always explore new possibilities and try find a new experience and inspiration?

DP: “I think that’s just the beauty of being alive. No matter what you’re doing, I think the whole reason we’re here is for new experiences. We’re not here to do the same shit over and over. It’s supposed to be an adventure, you know? I feel like we’re supposed to absorb as much as we can out in this world, and if you ever stop having new thoughts and experiences, then you may as well just roll over and die. In my opinion, but I’m really extreme about shit, I’m starting to realise.” (laughs)

S13: Are there any plans to tour?

DP: “Yes. I really wanted to tour in November, but I think just because it’s so close to the end of the year, we’re going to wait until January and February. I want to tour with the full band. Because I play all the instruments on every record, the album just becomes a blueprint for the songs, and then the live band – depending on who’s playing – we just kind of take the blueprint and run with it.”

S13: There’s so much room for those songs to grow in a live setting in comparison with perhaps some of your older material.

DP: “Yeah, the early stuff I didn’t intend for it to be that way. There were strict arrangements, and the band was supposed to follow them. But I also didn’t want to be a dick and say, ‘Play it exactly like this!’ If that’s their style, let’s alter it for your style. The songs live with a band will always sound different. The songs from …Shark Cage always sounded different live. They were recognisable, but they weren’t exactly like the record. This album, there are long sections that can go on as long or as short as you want based on your mood that day. It’s more flexible for a live band.”

S13: Do you see this record as a new portal to further improvise in future recordings?

DP: “I would love to. But for all I know, the next record will be me and a banjo! (laughs) It’s all up in the air, but this is definitely where my head’s at right now. I feel like I’ve always been interested in this, so I’ll definitely be exploring this as long as I can.”

S13: Where exactly do you think your impulse to create music comes from?

DP: “That’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s an impulse to create for everybody. Mine is music or any kind of art or words. So I think my impulse is the same as anybody else’s, but I’m not sure where it come from for music specifically. As a guitar player, I feel like I have so much work to do to improve, so that’s my thing. When I have time, I’ve started taking flamenco guitar lessons online, just because I’ve always been blown away by flamenco and never understood the technique. And now it’s starting to make sense. I feel like there’s a bottomless pit of exploration.”

Ballads of Harry Houdini is out now via Drag City. Purchase from Bandcamp.